Should you’ve been affected by AI Overviews, site visitors drops, or really feel unsure about search engine marketing’s future, then this episode is for you.
Search Engine Journal’s Editor-in-Chief Katie Morton sits down with progress advisor and writer of “Development Memo,” Kevin Indig, to unpack the outcomes of his newest AI Overviews research.
On this 35-minute episode, they talk about the way it impacts search, search engine marketing, and model advertising and marketing in 2025.
Editor’s word: The next transcript has been edited evenly for readability, brevity, and adherence to our editorial tips.
What AI Overviews Imply For Search, search engine marketing & Model Belief
Katie Morton: Hello, everyone. It’s I, Katie Morton. I’m the editor-in-chief of Search Engine Journal, and right now I’m sitting down with Kevin Indig, who’s a progress advisor to fast-growing tech firms and the writer of “Development Memo,” a improbable publication.
We syndicate it right here on Search Engine Journal, however join it immediately, too, as a result of he has content material unique to subscribers. It’s crammed with good insights each marketer must know.
Kevin, thanks for making the time right now. The research was analyzed in March-April 2025 and printed in Could. We’ve had time to replicate, and right now we’ll unpack the important thing takeaways.
We’ll begin with the nuts and bolts of the research’s background, so listeners perceive the context, after which transcend the info to discover how entrepreneurs and corporations, particularly these annoyed by Google, AI Overviews, or site visitors drops, can reply.
So, Kevin, are you able to summarize the research and share the principle takeaways?
Kevin Indig: Thanks for having me on, Katie. It’s nice to be right here with you.
What The AI Overview Research Actually Reveals
Kevin: The research got here from a want to deeply perceive, from a qualitative perspective, how on a regular basis customers work together with AI Overviews.
In 2024, everybody was eyeing AI Overviews with curiosity, however site visitors influence wasn’t important but. Then, initially of 2025, every little thing modified. It turned a “holy cow” second – this was actual and critical.
We requested 70 individuals within the U.S., throughout totally different age teams, to resolve eight duties that coated dominant consumer intents: Discovering a tax accountant, researching medical questions, procuring, and so forth.
We deliberately included queries that confirmed AI Overviews however didn’t inform individuals to work together with them – we needed unbiased habits.
So, in a nutshell, the three most poignant outcomes are:
1. Traditional Natural Outcomes Nonetheless Carry Weight
Initially – and that is no shock – clicks are actually uncommon when folks see AI Overviews. That’s gotten by means of to everybody by now.
And but, on the similar time, basic natural outcomes nonetheless have nearly all of influence on folks’s completion of consumer journeys.
Let me untangle that for a second: What we discovered is that folks get their ultimate reply – the ultimate piece of data they had been got down to get – 80% of the time from basic natural outcomes. Not from AI Overviews, in order that was encouraging.
2. Excessive-High quality Clicks Occur In Excessive-Belief Moments
Clicks are happening, however folks nonetheless click on. And every of these clicks has a lot, a lot larger high quality than, say, in 2024 or earlier than.
As a result of these clicks are to confirm whether or not the outcomes are correct, to get human enter from platforms like Reddit or YouTube, and to extend confidence in whether or not what the AI is saying is true.
And for us, which means it’s important to be current in these high-trust, high-risk moments. I can unpack that somewhat extra…
3. Viewers Age Shapes AI Engagement
The third consequence I discovered very fascinating is that there actually is an age distinction right here. [Younger users] are way more receptive to AI solutions. They’re way more energetic on Reddit and YouTube. Whereas folks of a better age will typically simply skip the AI solutions as a result of they don’t belief them.
You need to know who you’re speaking to, who your audience is. Ideally, what the age group is of your ICP or your audience, after which make search engine marketing choices accordingly.
Why Branding Issues Extra Than Ever
Katie: Thanks for that. What I’d love to speak about subsequent is branding.
I really feel like large manufacturers are somewhat safer with latest developments. If you have already got recognition, you’re in a greater spot. However for those who’re a tiny model with no recognition, you’re actually behind the eight ball.
For the uninitiated or the uninformed, [you might wonder], why is that essential? It’s about belief.
When somebody sees your model in an AI Overview, recognition boosts belief. In the event that they click on on an AI Overview or scroll to search out natural outcomes, they’re extra more likely to belief and click on a reputation they know. A powerful model will increase your possibilities.
However even sturdy manufacturers can lose recognition. Mordy Oberstein and I speak about this quite a bit – he’s doing branding work now. Repute is every little thing.
Mordy makes use of the instance of Nike, which was as soon as ubiquitous, however has misplaced some relevance. Youthful generations aren’t as loyal or conscious of the swoosh anymore.
So, for large manufacturers, sustaining confidence and belief is important. For small or new manufacturers, or manufacturers that by no means had sturdy recognition, can they nonetheless acquire traction?
Kevin: You will get traction … however it’s actually difficult.
One problem is that a number of groups must work collectively: product, innovation, advertising and marketing, help, provide chain. search engine marketing doesn’t management all these variables. It’s all the time been a self-discipline of suggestions, counting on others to behave.
So, you all the time had been counting on different groups, and that has 10x’d now with AI. As a result of, as you stated, model, model notion, and sentiment are so important to the way you seem in search outcomes or solutions.
And it goes again to so many alternative contact factors with a model, not simply the emblem that folks see or the promoting, but in addition the product that they use, retention, all that form of stuff.
SEOs want to point out different departments the place points lie, utilizing click-through charges, model search quantity, and engagement metrics as indicators. They need to talk the story and rally different groups.
However that usually runs into value considerations. Asking for a brand new name heart to enhance help has large price range implications, and quantifying ROI is hard.
So, SEOs should push past the Google channel and affect firm technique. It’s extremely tough to affect.
Katie: Completely. And talking of search engine marketing being declared “lifeless,” I’ve heard that each few years in my 20 years within the business, however that is the primary time I’ve felt a reputable risk.
search engine marketing won’t ever really die. It’s discovery, and discovery is all the time wanted, however it’s undoubtedly altering. It was once essentially the most cost-effective advertising and marketing channel. Now, ROI is much less sure, and budgets are contracting.
However there’s a silver lining. A number of low-quality, normal content material meant simply to drive mass web page views is getting weeded out.
For instance, we used to rank for “What’s E-E-A-T?” and get tons of unqualified site visitors. With AI Overviews answering these normal queries now, site visitors is down, however the remaining site visitors is much extra certified. That’s higher for conversions.
It’s onerous for publishers who relied on brute-force clicks. However for us, shifting away from programmatic and towards advertisers aligned with our viewers, like SaaS, has labored. The business is altering massively.
So, what do you suppose is subsequent for search engine marketing and advertising and marketing?
The New Function Of search engine marketing In A Altering Panorama
Kevin: You hit it on the top. search engine marketing is contracting; budgets are down, management confidence is down, and when folks go away, their roles typically aren’t changed. search engine marketing has died and reinvented itself many instances.
I see that we’re utilizing loads of search engine marketing additionally for AI visibility optimization. I do count on that to alter, however nonetheless you flip it, we’re in a transition interval. And the issue with transition intervals is that they’re onerous to navigate. You lose orientation, and it’s painful.
As soon as you compromise at a brand new baseline, you simply run round somewhat headless, and also you attempt to discover your approach. After which slowly, issues form of begin to settle again in.
And so I’m very assured that no matter we’re going to name this, we’re going to settle into a brand new baseline. It would take some time. This isn’t going to cease within the subsequent six months – most likely not twelve months. However it’s onerous to foretell when.
Based mostly on how shortly fashions enhance and the way shortly people adapt to them, that can resolve the tempo of this transition.
Nevertheless, there are additionally many alternatives in transitions. You possibly can reinvent your self. And that’s the place, as SEOs, we would lose the search engine marketing price range, however possibly we acquire some model price range, which has been a lot, a lot greater prior to now.
You see firms spending tens of millions of {dollars} for multi-year contracts for a tiny brand that sits someplace on a System 1 automotive. These items occur on a regular basis.
There’s an enormous alternative for search engine marketing to detach from that undesirable profiling as a efficiency channel – detach ourselves from being a efficiency channel, and grow to be way more of a model channel, affect channel, presence channel – no matter you need to name it.
New metrics. New levers. Deeply rooted in search engine marketing. And efficient and highly effective, however form of in a brand new design, proper? Like search engine marketing 2.0. No matter you need to name it.
And I do agree with you. I additionally see individuals who’ve been within the sport for a very long time stepping out. Completely get that. I see younger folks dropping a little bit of confidence.
However I can even say that I would love (however wouldn’t admit) that there’s somewhat a part of me that’s form of excited for all this modification.
As a result of it’s a chance to form of reshuffle the playing cards, discover out new stuff, possibly discover some secrets and techniques, and form of reverse engineer what’s happening.
Whenever you have a look at the final simply 10 days the place a number of folks and corporations discovered new methods to reverse engineer what queries Gemini makes use of and ChatGPT makes use of, I’m like, man, it’s superior to see how adamant the business works on growing the brand new playbook, dissecting how these mechanics work and LLMs work, and discovering new methods.
So, I’ve excessive confidence, and I even have loads of empathy for all of the ache and the form of issues that this business goes by means of. However once more, I see us popping out the opposite facet sooner or later in like a brand new design – and with loads of influence.
Katie Morton: I find it irresistible. I agree with the empathy as effectively. As a result of everybody in advertising and marketing, it appears, has misplaced their thoughts somewhat bit over the previous 12 months or two with these shifts in site visitors.
However that Wild Wild West setting can also be actually thrilling as a result of there are going to be all of those developments.
And if individuals are calm and so they persevere and so they do the work to determine this stuff out, both for themselves or to look at what these researchers are discovering, folks shall be okay, proper?
Kevin: We all the time are. Sorry to chop you off there, however there’s a very essential level to make right here that I didn’t make – and that’s: It’s not simply search that’s altering.
search engine marketing is on the forefront of AI. On the absolute forefront. As a result of it’s about phrases, and it’s about search, and search is form of the most important interface between AI and people proper now.
So it’s not simply search that’s altering. Advertising and marketing is totally altering. And like, all of our lives are fully altering.
Positive, this may take years to trickle by means of, possibly not even to the diploma we’ve considered it, however it’s fairly clear that AI is not less than as revolutionary because the web. Perhaps even essentially the most revolutionary invention that humanity has made to date.
So let’s not neglect: Every thing is altering. It’s not simply us SEOs. It’s all of the channels. It’s advertising and marketing as a complete.
Modes and levers are disappearing, and new ones are developing. We’re feeling it deeply in search engine marketing, as being form of the entrance line of AI. However make no mistake, this may trickle by means of to all of the paid channels, product, every little thing.
Everyone is in a state of shock proper now, making an attempt to determine what the brand new branches are to carry on to after which construct on high of. Advertising and marketing as we all know it’s over. LLMs are reworking how they attain us.
Katie: This impacts each channel. At SEJ, we’ve collapsed editorial and advertising and marketing into one built-in staff. It was once search engine marketing and editorial right here, advertising and marketing over there, and nobody actually talked. That doesn’t work anymore.
Now, every little thing is extra cohesive and centered on the ICP and conversion. It’s higher for purchasers and for groups.
Kevin: 100%. I speak to all my shoppers about this. search engine marketing and paid search ought to’ve all the time been linked, however they had been siloed, similar with product, e-mail, social, and so forth.
I imply, look: Realistically and ideally, search engine marketing and paid (or paid search) have all the time been linked on the hip. However I’ll inform you, not less than throughout nearly all the businesses that I’ve labored with, they had been siloed.
The identical exists with all these different groups, like product advertising and marketing or social media, conversion, and e-mail – all that form of stuff.
Now’s the time to tear off the band-aid. There may be small groups of possibly an search engine marketing, an editor, an e-mail particular person, a social particular person, and possibly a really technical one that can shortly prototype new apps, packages, or instruments.
The most important problem now’s inner purple tape. AI is a pace catalyst, however firms’ previous workflows sluggish them down. Huge organizations are caught.
I’m urging shoppers to kind these multi-disciplinary items beneath one supervisor, one roof, one mission.
Reaching Individuals In every single place Requires A Daring Shift To Different Platforms
Katie: Superior. One final level: different platforms. For too lengthy, folks relied too closely on Google. Diversifying site visitors sources – adverts, social, newsletters – is now important. Holistic advertising and marketing is the longer term. What are you seeing [that is] working proper now?
Typically talking, the place do folks dwell nowadays? The place are people hanging out, and the place do we discover them? What are the success metrics that you just’re seeing?
Kevin: The quick reply is: In every single place.
Katie: Good luck, everybody. Okay, good evening. That’s the present!
Kevin: No, however the actuality is, in every single place. There’s this fascinating paradox. I must coin this time period by some means, however this fascinating paradox that principally all of the social networks are rising. And new ones are popping up, proper? TikTok – I imply, it’s not that new anymore, however it’s nonetheless rising. Reddit is changing into way more of a family identify now.
And so that you ask your self, what offers? Positive, linear TV’s down, okay. However how is that this attainable? And the fact is: Individuals are on-line on a regular basis – talking for a good friend – and so they use loads of platforms on the similar time.
So, one of the best groups, or the businesses which might be making a huge impact, they’ve this encompass sound impact that they’re creating, the place they’re current in loads of locations. They interact authentically, say, on Reddit.
When good firms interact on Reddit, it doesn’t really feel like advertising and marketing. It’s not advertising and marketing, actually. It’s way more like making an attempt to be useful, extra like buyer help or success.
That’s why these individuals are usually very well-suited to work together on Reddit. They really add worth. They’re really a part of the dialog.
Manufacturers are repurposing their content material in a really considerate and high-fidelity approach, the place possibly they create a weblog article, flip it right into a video, flip it into clips, which then flip into questions they reply on Reddit. There’s this sort of in every single place technique. AI actually helps with that.
And I can even say it’s sometimes not firms which might be getting caught on the quantification-of-impact query. The fact is that steering a company or an organization towards that multi-channel impact – or that encompass sound impact – takes a swing.
It takes a pacesetter to say, “Okay, we’re going to spend some cash and take six months, and we’re going to spend money on Reddit and YouTube, and we’re going to attend for the outcomes to come back in. We’re not going to sit down there each day refreshing the dashboard asking, ‘What number of gross sales have we generated but?’”
It takes a little bit of a swing. And so it’s defining for this period, for this transition interval, the place it’s a lot tougher to venture and forecast the place you’re going to land with a few of these issues.
It takes judgment and style and a sure diploma of risk-taking to spend money on these channels and features, and being comfy, or not less than okay, with ready for among the outcomes to come back in and with the ability to measure them later.
I’m not saying it’s best to wait a 12 months or two. However give it two quarters, possibly three quarters, and experiment with a few of these channels.
So, that’s the place individuals are – individuals are in every single place. It’s not sufficient to simply have one shot at one platform. It’s essential be form of in every single place.
And repurposing might help. Utilizing AI with a few of these issues helps. However on the finish of the day, it’s essential to take a swing.
Katie: Very smart, Kevin. A type of issues that I discovered extremely annoying is you could run these experiments, and also you’re going to attend on your outcomes, after which earlier than your experiment is even carried out, every little thing’s modified once more.
Kevin: Precisely. Predictable strategies are gone. You are taking swings, and a few gained’t join as a result of circumstances change. The most effective leaders, one of the best groups – loads of instances, they take loads of swings.
As a result of a few of these swings will hit full pressure, and it’s form of a ability to construct.
Katie: Yeah, I couldn’t agree extra. We’ve carried out month-to-month experiments at SEJ. Each division runs one. It could possibly be structure, content material sort … fixed iteration. I inform the staff: comfortable knees. Be able to shift. There’s no “set it and neglect it” anymore.
Kevin: Sure, sure. On level. Permit folks to fail. One other good ability is with the ability to take significant dangers. I’m not saying guess the farm, however as a pacesetter, if you wish to encourage your folks to take dangers, allow them to.
Once more, that doesn’t imply to blindly shoot in all instructions. You need to have some thought behind that, some judgment. You need to be important. However there must be a degree at which you let go.
Katie: That could be a actually good level. We tie experiments to north-star metrics. For us, one is publication subscriptions, so most of our experiments help that. We’ve seen nice success, not all the time in uncooked site visitors, however in conversions and income.
Kevin: Wonderful. Congratulations on that.
Katie: Thanks. All proper, Kevin, any parting remarks earlier than we head out?
Kevin: I’m listening to loads of very involved SEOs. Involved about “How do I inform this story?” or “How do I handle my boss or management on this time the place site visitors is down?”
I need to ship out some braveness. This is among the largest shifts I’ve lived by means of in my life. I might guess it’s most likely the identical for many, if not all, of the viewers.
So, that is possibly the time to make some modifications and have some grace about discovering a brand new playbook.
I’m seeing loads of SEOs very scared about this. I get the preliminary worry. However once more, that is such a considerable, basic change. It’s okay for issues to look totally different. It’s okay for you to not have the reply proper now. Be trustworthy with management. Push again if wanted.
Katie: Deal with new metrics, not simply UVs or PVs, however ones that hook up with enterprise objectives. That’s the place the story of success shall be informed.
Kevin: Precisely.
Katie: Thanks once more, Kevin. The place can folks discover you?
Kevin: growth-memo.com, or simply seek for “Development Memo.” That’s my primary hub.
Katie: Superior. We’re at searchenginejournal.com. See you subsequent time!
Kevin: Thanks for having me.
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Featured Picture: Paulo Bobita/Search Engine Journal
